The following is from the comments section of my article on Infinity. The conversation has grown too big and abstract for that section so I have decided to make it a post.
It is a conversation about belief's between myself Garrett, an Atheist, and Katherine, a born again Christian. This post will continue to be updated as the conversation continues.
I’ll try to be easy on you. Let me start of by saying that I was once a Christian, a committed one, I went on missionary trips, grew up in a Christian school, and was very active in the church; so I do know and understand where you are coming from. It wasn’t until I started questioning things, like the fact that there are billions of ‘good and holly’ people on earth but no more than about 1/3 share the same belief, so at the least, about 66% of ‘good and holly’ people would end up going to Hell.
Just like I questioned my own beliefs, I ask you to question yours:
I believe I am a creation. I’m not a product of chance. And just as all other creations, I was created with a purpose.
Without stretching your believes in any way, yet; You are in many ways a product of chance, from you surviving to this point, your parents having you, and their parents so forth and so on. Being created with a purpose isn’t always a good thing, look at Marjoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe it’s a very interesting story. I personally prefer to define my own purpose, my mother wanted me to be a doctor, but I was way more interested in electronics and physics.
I believe my creator is good. Because I was created with reverence and respect. I know because I am unique and wonderful.
Being created with reverence and respect says nothing about the character of the creator. example: Tomas de Torquemada, made Grand Inquisitor by Pope Sixtus IV, he created horrible means of touchier for the Christian Inquisition (fight against heretics) I chose him because working for the Pope and his faith, he certainly created his devices with reverence and respect; but is now thought of as one of the most evil people in history. Perhaps he may have not been a evil person if it wasn’t for his religion, to quote Steven Weinberg, “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
I believe my creator is mindful of me. Because I was given a life of my own. I could have been a mere subject—no free will of my own. But I am free. Free to enjoy that goodness of existence.
I don’t quite see the connection of your “creator is mindful of you because you have your own life.” At any rate, any rebuttal to it would be based on just as vague ideas, I think.
It is not my choice to exist. I did not choose my form or condition. But I exist, nonetheless. And I am given freedom to live my life as I will it.
Similar to the above, however everything that exists didn’t choose to exist or it’s ‘form’ (form in the broad sense, cause you can modify your form partially.) If God exists, even he did not choose to, by the mere logic that something that does not exist cannot make a choice, not even a choice to exist. And your freedom to live your life is limited in many ways, from location, oppression, form and life/death, just to name a few. I know we already touched on this in a previous conversation.
In my existence, I remember I am a creation. I remember my creator. And I remember that I am created for a purpose—that which my creator willed. I am free. Yet my life is not mine, as my purpose is not for myself—but for and of my creator.
I think you are saying that these are things you determined/decided on, not things that were decided for you, right?
What good is a creation that doesn't serve its purpose?
Once again our views of purpose are what we decide, because we cannot know for sure what we were intended for. You seem to believe that God was your creator and he created you to serve him. On the other hand I believe that I am the product of millions of years of Evolution and if it had a purpose for me (it didn’t, but) it would be to live and reproduce. We both believe what we do based on our comprehending and acceptance of the evidence we have been confronted with. Not all creations serve their purpose, in fact that’s how new inventions and purposes emerge, by mistakes and errors.
I am free to will my own will. But I choose to will according to the will of my creator. Because I remember I am a creation.
I would reword the “Because I remember I am a creation” to because I believe I was created by God and I chose to serve him. Nevertheless, this is your thought and there is no short rebuttal to it while trying not to be disrespectful.
And by my will, I give thanks.
Ok, fair enough.
What greater pleasure is there for a creation, in its freedom, to willfully please the creator?
I don’t know, but I can purpose a situation that does not include you. In the bible it is very clear that God’s creations, sometimes angels and sometimes people, purpose was to kill and destroy other people, lives and civilizations. This still happens today, i.e. killing in the name of your God, etc. I know this is not what you meant, don’t get me wrong, but some people do believe this is why they were created, and if this was the reason I was created, I would have NO pleasure from it, nor would I be likely to actually do it. I assume as an intelligent and good person you wouldn’t either.
I believe my creator is God. And that Jesus is His Son.
I believe that religion is often harsh and unkind. But God is not like that; He is good. And Jesus is equally good.
Religion is often harsh and unkind, but this is a product of religion being based on so called ‘Holly Books’ that were written by barbaric people. And God is (at least if you believe the bible is true and his word) very evil. http://www.eviltheists.com/2011/04/old-testament-evil-god.html
Therefore, I am not religious. I am a Christian—born again in Christ Jesus.
I think you mean you are religious. Was that a typo or are to trying to explain something I missed?
Thanks you very much for your reply, I found your belief ideas very interesting.